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El desprecio que sentís por la mucama de la foto, no es propio de un progresista de tu calibre.

Sos absolutamente incapaz de pensar que ella puede haber estado allí de motu propio, precisamente porque la considerás una cosa, un objeto, que no piensa, ni siente, ni tiene derecho a expresarse públicamente como se le antoje.

Para vos, ella debería estar comiendo un choripán en algún acto de D'Elía, junto al "pueblo" del que forma parte, a diferencia de la "señora", que forma parte de la "oligarquía".

La verdad he encontrado muchas pavadas en este blog, pero no esperaba encontrar un acto de discriminación tan espantoso y desagradable.

Al final, el "facho" resultaste vos...

(lo cual en el fondo es lógico, porque el fascismo fue una derivación de tu adorado socialismo, y no del liberalismo)

Raskolnikov dijo...

Tenés razón, seguro que "la mucama" tiene doscientas hectáreas en la pampa húmeda. ¡Maldita exportadora!

Raskolnikov dijo...

Pará porque esto me lo salteé, cuando empiezo a escuchar el mismo discurso siempre dejo de leer y voy hasta el final...

"el fascismo fue una derivación de tu adorado socialismo, y no del liberalismo"

Naaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa...dale sé bueno...O sea...cargale al socialismo el estalinismo, si querés, para mí es tirado de los pelos, pero dale decí que el estalinismo fue el comunismo o el socialismo y la dejamos pasar...

¿Pero el fascismo? ¿Vos nunca escuchaste hablar del fascismo como instrumento al avance del socialismo? ¿Cómo puede ser una cosa y su freno al mismo tiempo?

Juan de los Palotes Medrano dijo...

Dos cosas:

1) No hace falta tener una sola hectarea para protestar. De hecho yo no las tengo, y protesto. Soy por eso un "traidor de clase"??

2) Lo que el fascismo y el nazismo pretendían contener, era el comunismo, y NO el socialismo. De hecho Mussolini surgió del socialismo, y prominentes dirigentes del NSDAP, también (comenzando por Goebbels, que claramente simpatizaba con esas ideas). El ingrediente distintivo de estos grupos, en todo caso, fue el nacionalismo, que brotó como reacción contra el cáracter internacionalista y apátrida de sus enemigos comunistas. Pero si aún tenés dudas, no hay más que recordar el nombre del partido fundado por Adolf Hitler: Partido Nacional-SOCIALISTA Alemán.

Raskolnikov dijo...

Entonces si es por el nombre: Partido Nacional Socialista Alemán, no hay que erradicar solamente al Socialismo, sino a los Nacionalismos, a los Partidos y, de última, a los alemanes también.

No sé, la verdad no veo la pata socialista del nazismo. No creo que a los fusilados políticos de la época se los diferenciara según socialistas y comunistas.

Juan de los Palotes Medrano dijo...

Ok, veo que ha decidido no creerme. No lo culplo. Yo soy el "enemigo" en este debate, y bien podría estar vendiendole un buzón.

Lo que le pido entonces, es que lea más sobre el tema y vuelva. Le aseguro que es como le digo:

Fascismo y Nazismo fueron derivaciones del Socialismo. Del socialismo y del nacionalismo extremo, claro.

Raskolnikov dijo...

No es que no "te crea". A ver, cuando decís derivaciones, a mi se me viene que cualquier socialista es, entonces, un nazi. Digo, de la misma manera puedo decir que el nazismo también es una derivación del darwinismo aplicado a la teoría social, y la verdad me parece un anacronismo y una falta de rigor intelectual decirle nazi a Darwin. Yo creo que el socialismo, y el comunismo más, deben hacerse cargo de la barbarie estalinista, pero de la misma manera este sistema -el capitalista- engendró el nazismo y el fascismo como formas de reproducción del capital ante la avanzada soviética. No es casual que las dos corrientes se hayan dado en plena crisis del capitalismo (1930). Digo.

Juan de los Palotes Medrano dijo...

No, no, no. Justamente surgieron como contrapartida al comunismo, que había surgido con fuerza en Europa como respuesta a la crisis del '30.

Pero compartían con el comunismo lo esencial: El totalitarismo, y el odio al capitalismo.

Lo que Mussolini y Hitler buscaban, era crear un empresariado nacional (y adicto), que junto a las restantes corporaciones (también nacionales) conformara una gran organización intermedia entre el Estado y la Sociedad.

Ergo, ninguno de los dos tenía absolutamente nada que ver con el capitalismo liberal que vos criticás. En todo caso, se parecían mucho más al "modelo" que pretenden imponer los Kirchner (o que pretende imponer Chavez en Venezuela), que a una economía libre de mercado, como la que pueden tener hoy Australia, Irlanda, Japón, o Chile.

Pero quedate tranquilo: Obviamente no te estoy acusando de fascista ni de nazi. Simplemente te apunto que cuando se propugna la intervención excesiva del Estado en una economía (como propugna el Socialismo) el riesgo es derivar en regimenes autoritarios como esos (y como los de los Kirchner y Chavez).

Está claro que la libertad no asegura que todos sean ricos, ni elimina automáticamente la pobreza, pero es preferible al dirigismo económico (ese que aplicaron Mussolini, Perón y Hitler, y que pretenden imponer los Kirchners), donde el Estado es quien "decide" quien puede ganar y quien no, y cuanto se pueda ganar y cuanto no.

Los que aplican estas recetas, lo único que logran es espantar la inversión (local y extranjera), aletargar la economía, frustrar la iniciativa privada, y en última instancia, crear pobreza.

¿Acaso te parece "casual" que Bill Gates o el dúo Brin-Page hayan surgido en Estados Unidos?

¿Y que la penicilina se haya descubierto en Gran Bretaña?

¿Y que los chips de la computadora que estás usando se hayan diseñado en Silicon Valley?

Las casualidades no existen, Raskolnikov. Si uno no crea las condiciones para que la gente desarrolle (en LIBERTAD) su creatividad y su espiritu empresario, la creatividad y el espíritu empresario, mueren (o se van a otro país).

Por supuesto sería fantástico que todos fueramos solidarios, y que los pajarillos cantaran melodías en nuestras ventanas todas las mañanas, pero el mundo es como es, y no como quisiéramos que fuera.

El problema que yo veo en el pensamiento "progresista", en suma, es que no acepta la realidad, y cree que desde el Estado, ésta puede ser "forzada" en la dirección que uno decida.

Y eso, por desgracia, jamás podrá ocurrir.

Raskolnikov dijo...

"se parecían mucho más al "modelo" que pretenden imponer los Kirchner (o que pretende imponer Chavez en Venezuela"

Decir que el kirchnerismo o el chavismo son modelos nazis o fascistas me parece de un reduccionismo bastante pavo. No sos ni boludo, ni facho: es pavo. Es anular todo tipo de discusión. Una vez que nombrás el nazismo, ya está, ya no se puede seguir la discusión.

"cuando se propugna la intervención excesiva del Estado en una economía (como propugna el Socialismo) el riesgo es derivar en regimenes autoritarios como esos (y como los de los Kirchner y Chavez)"

En lo que diferimos es en lo que vos considerás "excesivo" y en como lo considero yo. Para este momento, la reforma agraria, por ejemplo, es excesiva: si por sacarle un pedacito más de la plata que no ganan por invertir más te paran el país 70 días, no imaginemos lo que harían por un poquito más. Para vos es excesiva esa intervención, para la gente de campo también, de la misma manera, no consideran excesivos los subsidios -que también son intervencionismo.

No sé, me parece que una vez que embarrás la cancha con nazismo y fascismo, y todos esos razonamientos tirados de los pelos -como decir, eurocéntricamente, que peronismo y fascismo son lo mismo- se agota toda posibilidad de discusión.

Y no me tires todas las comparaciones sobre Perón y Mussolini porque me las sé de memoria.

Una última pregunta: ¿en qué momento de la Argentina hubo mayor crecimiento industrial y participación de la riqueza de los trabajadores?, ¿en un gobierno "de libre mercado" o "dirigista"?

Marlowe dijo...

Para mí no hay dudas, todo pelotudo, como este "juan de los palotes", que no tiene ni una hectárea (y todos los pelotudos que tienen menos de mil y se sienten parte de "el campo") son traidores a su clase y por tando pobres tipos alienados. Que me den un solo argumento, nada más que uno, de porqué sus intereses coinciden con los de la Sociedad Rural.

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